CUTTING CRIME WITHOUT DOING PRISON TIME.

[Guest]

May I put forward my idea on how to cut crime without sending someone to prison.
For example when someone takes something that does not belong to them,or does not pay for something which by law they should,or they do something to someone else,or someone Else's property,or force what they want to do onto someone else,or carry a weapon which could injure or kill someone,or they drink and drive which could injure or kill someone,or someone who knowingly knows what they are doing is wrong.
Whilst we know no one is perfect,I believe there should be a punishment that only the person involved should be made accountable for their actions from a very early age,when every one starts to learn things good or bad from others.
The last thing I want to happen to anyone,this includes me and my family and friends,is to loose a part of our body's,but there are lots of bad things going on because there is no punishment to fit the crime,and prison is no longer a deterrent,like it was back in the old days when people were tortured,and starved to death,or just treated like scum of the earth.
For example what I would like to see happen in the future say if a child was caught stealing something say at 5 years old,then there should be a full investigation into why they found the need to do it,even though the first years of our lives we would normally get what we want from others,until we can know what we want enough to indicate in some way,by either sound or movement to get our message across.
I'm saying if a child is brought up to know right from wrong at a very early age,done by someone who also knows if they do wrong they will also be punished in a way that they will be the only one to suffer,instead of involving those around them,done by doing something bad enough to them,in the hope that they will think twice about doing something wrong again in the future.
Whilst some people will claim nearly every body has done something wrong in their lives and got away with it,I think it's only right I share my idea with you as crime effects us all in some way,which I believe can be cut in a simple way,and at a very low cost too,compared to the man hours spent on one persons action in doing something wrong by choice.
What I'm putting forward is simply,if someone over the age agreed to be the lowest that someone can be made accountable for their actions,and after all other ways have been tried,that the person who has done wrong should be punished by loosing a part of their body,ie a section of a finger or a thumb until they change their ways for the good of others and them selves,or they will end up with no fingers section to do anything with if they don't.
Whilst of course there are many people who have already have lost sections of their hand,they have had to carry on with out them and all what that in tails,which make me feel sad when you see so many of us who do not have this disability to cope with,which I'm sure has happen to them not through choice,as our hands play such a big part in our lives.
WITH THIS IN MIND I THOUGHT,if I or others were to do wrong in our lives,and we were caught doing it beyond any shadow of doubt,be it on CCTV tape or by being caught in the act,we would then go to a police station with a solicitor present to be charged under a set of rules,with a judge present to see that a section or more of a persons hands is removed surgically by a police surgeon based at the police station,who only deals with say pick pockets,thieves,muggers,drink drivers who are well over the limit and could kill someone,and someone who carries a knife or a gun or something else at the time of arrest that could injure or kill someone if used,starting with the top of a little finger first to act as a reminder. Having other judges to deal with other types of crime that involve doing wrong in a different ways,but could still use the same punishment to stop the person from doing it again,and it will act as a deterrent to those who may feel like doing wrong, starting from a very early or late age if they think that they can get away with it by having a slap on the their wrist and being told don't do it again or you will end up in prison,which serves a purpose for some people,but for some people it serves no purpose at all,just a place to be fed and looked after by us all who owe them nothing for doing wrong by choice.
Whilst I don't have the right to presume people will agree with my idea I'm putting forward,it would be nice to think things are going to get better when we have more police on our streets,but I believe the whole system of law and order needs to be sorted out from top to bottom,starting with a punishment that works that keeps us all on the straight and narrow.
Thank you for reading my message as I would like things to change for the better for all of us good or bad. Power to the people who are doing their bit,and may we all live long and happy too.
Happy New Year 2006. John. JRP.

[Muddypause]

John, I can't let this one pass. Normally I find you quite entertaining, but I have serious opinions about your idea here. It brings up too many issues to consider it as merely entertainment. What you are proposing is a state that is empowered to mutilate in the name of justice. We know only too well already, that such a state has to be draconion and oppressive in its nature, to say the least. Just look around the world for examples - where does mutilation as a form of justice exist? What sort of government and judiciary do they have? Would you want to live in a state like Mugabe's (a 'democracy', he will tell you)? Or in a place where you can be locked up indefinitely without trial, where you can't vote, or your vote is meaningless. Or in a place where warlords or state employed thugs meter out justice and administer terrible mutilations as punishment? These are the sort of places where mutilation is used as a form of punishment. These are the sort of administrations you find in places where people are dealt with like this. Have you ever seen someone who has been a victim of these mutilations? It seldom stops at fingers and thumbs; hands, arms, feet, eyes, ears, noses, lips, tongues, genitals... This is serious stuff, John. How seriously do you want to debate it?

It's particularly worrying that you seem to be proposing this as something that should take place without trial. That seems strangely at odds with your parting shot of 'Power to the people'; a democracy that deals out justice without trial is only democratic in name.

Fortunately, I find it hard to believe that a single prospective MP in this country would support your idea. This means it has no chance of coming into being. History shows that it was a long haul to get ourselves into a position of having an accountable government, and I for one don't want to see a retrograde step to the sort of society that would find mutilation acceptable. Because if this is acceptable, what else, by the nature of that society, will also be acceptable? Mutilation couldn't exist on its own.

I'll tell you what I think: a tarrif that involves punishment - or to give it other names; revenge, or retribution - has no place in a civilised judicial system. I know some people will think that is as daft an idea as yours. Others may not have considered thinking of 'justice' as something separate from 'punishment'. 'Justice' is also different to 'fairness' in that it is, ideally, an impartial administration of law rather than a partial notion of retaliation.

It's still a long way off, but I would like to see a society that doesn't administer revenge of any sort in the name of justice, but seeks instead to help people.

I fully support a system that improves society. But cutting bits off people, however small those bits may be, does not do this. It can only make things worse.

[hedgewitch]

Deterrents don't work in cutting down on crime. No pun intended.
I would think the thought of being locked in a prison for 23 hours a day would be deterrent enough but this proves not to be the case.
No, what the government needs to do is to bring back the local bobby to patrol the streets, to stop all this crap about children given rights to divorce their parents, bring back caning in schools and parents allowed to discipline their children how they see fit.
Our children are out of control. They no longer have respect for any authority and this is where it all started to fall apart, in my opinion.
Cut off bits no, cut off rights yes. Children are children until they turn 18, treat them as so and then when they are adults then they will have rights.

[shiney]

'Deterrents don't work in cutting down on crime. No pun intended.
I would think the thought of being locked in a prison for 23 hours a day would be deterrent enough but this proves not to be the case.
No, what the government needs to do is to bring back the local bobby to patrol the streets, to stop all this crap about children given rights to divorce their parents, bring back caning in schools and parents allowed to discipline their children how they see fit.
Our children are out of control. They no longer have respect for any authority and this is where it all started to fall apart, in my opinion.'

Here, here, Hedgy! 8)

[Wombat]

I gotta admit John, this one makes me feel sick. I support Stew's comments with the proviso that I would probably have used stronger lanuage than he did. I think you need to take a close look at yourself mate, and perhaps consider professional help.

Nev

[Millymollymandy]

This is not nice to read especially as I am eating my lunch.

[shiney]

I have just re-read this post. It's a bit hectic to say the least and not very SSF ish to be honest. Perhaps the 'poster' on this topic should go to a law and order forum!

I believe we should be firm with our kids and teach them to respect everyone and their belongings and punishing them accordingly, when they don't.

Removing limbs is excessive.

[Wombat]

To say the least!

Nev

[Tigerhair]

I got bored of John's post half way through, such naivety. However, I abhor the generalisation that all kids are bad.... that is c**p in my opinion. Yes, there needs to be discipline and respect, but not ALL kids are "bad" and neither are their parents! Grrrrr.....

[shiney]

My kids aren't bad and I don't think they ever will be dis-repectful. I'd duff 'em if they were and would take them to the police station myself if they did something really bad!

All children have their moments, but with guidence and a bit of sorting out, they grow up to be good citizens.

[Guest]

How many times have you said,or heard the saying,if I caught the person who did it I would kill them or if it had happen to me I would have killed them if I had got hold of them or I would have punched the 7 bells of s... out of them if it had happen to me.
What I'm saying is if we are already thinking this way,we are more than likely to do it,just like when we say to our children,if you don't do as you are told you will be punished,which must have been said at some time by every parent at some time,which we all do and say if things are not going the way we want it to be,so we as individuals deal out punishment to children at a early age already,which we think will stop the problem there and then,done in the hope it will stop the children,which we all were at some time,from doing something wrong again,done by shouting mainly at first,to show our anger,if that does not work then we have body contact to in force how you feel to back up what you say. In a family environment where there are no rules set down,we all make up our own rules as we go along to gain respect from others good or bad to feel part of life,with a end result of some people sticking to the rules which can be bent,or some people who by choice decide to brake the rules to suit them selves,which is not OK if it involves others who respect the rules lay-ed down so that we can try to live together as individuals as best we can
But I believe there are so many of us braking the law or rules now,that if we carry on the way we are going,fear will rule our lives from people who are on drugs or from those who have not been brought up properly to be good,which does affect us all whether we like it or not,which is why I put my idea forward in the hope it will help to solve a man made problem.
At least we are talking about something that we as individuals all know something about,but we have to leave it to others to sort out, so if it does not work,we can blame them,without being involved our selves.
As for what goes on in other country's you and I can't do any thing about, but talk,that's why every one wants to come here because the fear of some thing,or some one,yet we are living in fear too in the UK depending on where you live..John. JRP.

[hedgewitch]

I abhor the generalisation that all kids are bad.... that is c**p in my opinion. Yes, there needs to be discipline and respect, but not ALL kids are "bad" and neither are their parents! Grrrrr.....

That's very presumptious of you, no-one said all kids are bad.
I was disciplined as a child by my parents and by my school as I'm sure many of you here were, and I am a pretty good person, in my opinion.
Children need rules and boundaries and routine, they need to feel part of a structure, it forms the foundation for them to grow happily into adult hood. When that falls apart is it any wonder that they run riot, demanding this and that! They are kids after all.

[Tigerhair]

My point was that I have met loads of people and children younger than me at different stages who have had that discipline and routine and DO have a respect for authority and ARE nice people - so to generalise that there are NONE of them about is incorrect. :)

[Guest]

Why is it people always say,if you want to change something you must be made,especially as my idea was to protect us from those who choose to do wrong things by choice,which most of us don't do by choice.
If there is any one out there who thinks the people who I thought should be punished in my way should get away with it,please tell me and others,as it seems there are more of you than I thought,going by what some people have said so far,or is it a case of you don't want to agree with me because even on this forum you can feel intimidated by some one you don't know,which adds to all the other things which I think is wrong too.or is it just me being me. John. JRP.

[Wombat]

I think it is just you John!

Nev