Our "Leaders" fail to lead - so what next

[Minnesota]

gdb, I agree with the Blaise Pascal Wager. except when it comes to the C02 issue. The carbon credit scam will ruin the economy of every country that signs up for it. If there was any PROOF, I'd be willing to see economies be destroyed for the sake of the planet.

The US EPA have ruled last month that C02 is a pollutant. This endangers the USA's ecomony, the US will lose jobs, this is one more step toward the demise of the USA.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/12/07/epa ... pollutant/

C02 is NOT a pollutant. we humans exhale it, the trees and plants breathe it in. it's necessary for life. I have posted an evidentiary conclusion that the tiny percentage of C02 that human activity releases compared to the remaining amount naturally released can't cause any measurable global warming.

[KathyLauren]

Belief is all there is on this subject, there is no proof.
here is a link to a great article by Robert H. Essenhigh

Well, I don't want to get into a big debate about it, so this will be my final post on the subject. However, when someone is wrong on a subject as important as this, I feel a responsibility to make sure that the correct information is available. Not because it will convince you - I know that your mind is already made up - but because if the correct information is not made available, people will believe the wrong information.

Anthropogenic global warming has been proved by the best proof available - logical deduction from observable facts. The problem is that folks like Essenhigh are coming at the issue from the wrong direction.

The question is not what is controlling the temperature. The question is what is happening to the CO2 we generate. It is going into the air - there is no question about that - and it is accumulating there - no question about that either. So then you have to ask, what is it doing in the air when it accumulates there?

And what it does is trap heat. There is no question about that either. It is what the stuff does. The only questions remaining are how much heat, and what the feedbacks and tripping poiunts do with the excess heat.

4. there is no need to invoke CO2 as the source of the current temperature rise;

The only problem is that, if you don't invoke it as the source of the current temperature rise, you are left with the unanswered question of why not. It should be raising the temperature, so if it isn't, how do you explain why it isn't?

Notice, by the way how he slithers a red herring into the discussion:

6. if CO2 were the temperature–oscillation source

The relevant issue is not what causes natural oscillations. We know there have been many of these in the past, all attributable to natural causes. The issue is that we know that the current problem has a human cause, and is not like any previous natural oscillation. The various causes of natural oscillations are irrelevant to the problem of what the human-generated CO2 is doing today. The only relevance to the current problem is whether natural processes are sufficient to counter the effect we are causing, and the evidence is conclusive that they are not.

Granted you will still disagree, because your mind is made up, so we will just have to agree to differ.

[Minnesota]

KeithBC,
I do agree to disagree and I have said
all I need to on this subject...and maybe a little too much.
you have a good day my friend and neighbor to my Northwest.

[The Honk]

Why are we expected to believe in and trust scientists about climate change when they cant forecast tomorrows weather and get it right?

[KathyLauren]

Because climate is much easier to forecast than weather.

[The Honk]

I'm old enough to remember the new ice age being predicted. As a young man the media had me terrified of the hole in the ozone layer that was gonna burn us all. Mobile phone signals where frying ya brain, millenium bugs etc etc. Global warming is now climate change and Tidal waves have been renamed tsunarmis and we have severe weather warnings from the Met office if it's going to rain

I've been a keen sea angler all my life and the tidal predictions are the same now as they where 40 years ago in spite of all the hype about rising sea levels. We did have a spell of mild winters but Mother Nature seems to be sorting that out

Someone somewhere is telling us porky pies and I suspect it might be the new £££$$$$ carbon credit and renewables industries

What I'm really trying to say is, why should I start to belive "them" now, when everything else "they" told me over the last 50 years has turned out to be wrong, lies or Bullsh!t?

[brett53]

I'm old enough to remember the new ice age being predicted. As a young man the media had me terrified of the hole in the ozone layer that was gonna burn us all. Mobile phone signals where frying ya brain, millenium bugs etc etc. Global warming is now climate change and Tidal waves have been renamed tsunarmis and we have severe weather warnings from the Met office if it's going to rain

I've been a keen sea angler all my life and the tidal predictions are the same now as they where 40 years ago in spite of all the hype about rising sea levels. We did have a spell of mild winters but Mother Nature seems to be sorting that out

Someone somewhere is telling us porky pies and I suspect it might be the new £££$$$$ carbon credit and renewables industries

What I'm really trying to say is, why should I start to belive "them" now, when everything else "they" told me over the last 50 years has turned out to be wrong, lies or Bullsh!t?

can I add Cuban missile crisis - the reds under the bed - ww3 any day - the winter of 63 - BSE - mad cow disease - eating eggs - the heat wave of 76 - YK2 ( oh boy where they panicking about that one ) - the millennium generally - various oil "crises" ( heck my old man used to moan when the stuff ( petrol) was 5 bob a GALLON - and when it went to 7 shillings and sixpence ) - oh yea decimalisation - the pound in your pocket - bolides from space - weird old monks and their predictions - various wars that threatened to spread - badgers causing TB in cows - shortages of memory chips - unemployment - closing the coal mines - there are soo many things that experts and scientists have either been wrong about - or blown out of all proportion during my time , its getting hard to remember them all

is it any wonder that some of us are a tad cynical ??

and now we got 2012 to look forward to

[Nomada]

I have heard that Dr David Bellamy was sidelined from mainstream media for daring to disagree with the idea.

You know that the figures he based his opinion on were wrong? That's why he is being sidelined, for not checking his facts.

[brett53]

and whilst we are talking "doomsday " scenarios etc - do those of you who live in the UK realise that "according to experts / the latest study " ( attach what credibility to this you wish ) - that some of us are doubly doomed as we are sinking - whilst the Scots should keep their head above rising sea levels for a bit longer

see here :http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthn ... study.html

now 2 points - firstly has anyone considered that "maybe" some of the threat to the low lying countries is absolutely nothing to do with GW /CC but actually geological in consequence ?? - after all there are lots of places in the world that where once dry land and are now flooded ,and lots that where flooded and now dry land

and secondly - what are our "leaders " doing to counter this threat ?? - not a lot seemingly - oh sure they are putting money into protecting the capital , as this will protect the money generating "city " - but as to flood defences else where ?? - ah just abandon you homes and move - we can blame our lack of action on GW /CC - NOT whats really happening - that bits of the UK are sinking - but how many people know about this aspect of the reason sea levels are rising ?? - i bet you if i did a vox pop out in Plymouth today 99 out of a 100 probably would have no idea that this is even occurring - why ?? - simple because there's no money in it

where as the GW/CC debate is producing loads of revenue / money for lots of people - land movement is only going to cost money to do something about - so thus just another "inconvenient truth "

something else to ponder , we have been extracting oil and gas from the ground for over 100 years now - what is filling the voids ?? - if you take something out - then something will inevitably fill that space - nature abhors a vacuum as they say - is this also adding to land movement ?? - and may be not necessarily just in the local area - could it have a knock on effect globally ?? - and before you scoff at this , consider that until only a relatively few years ago plate tectonics was poo pooed by the scientific community

so whilst i do not deny that mankind is having an effect on the planet - i do wonder if GW /CC is just part of that effect ??

simple fact is folks that until any of this threatens the money supply , our leaders are naturally prone to inaction - if GW /CC seriously starts to threaten the cash cow of London at any stage - watch em leap into action then - and it would be the same in the US, china or any where else

and as Winston Churchill observed "talk is cheap " ( action costs money )

the older one gets - the more cynical one tends to become - and the LESS anyone listens to you

[Nomada]

Mwahahaha! I'm in an area that's rising! I did think this had been common knowledge for a while now though....

[brett53]

Mwahahaha! I'm in an area that's rising! I did think this had been common knowledge for a while now though....

you wont be laughing when all us refugees from the sinking bits invade you - we have pasties and REAL Devon clotted cream you know - be afraid - be very afraid

on the + side as soon as the going gets rough , all the incommers from past exeter will go home and that will take some of the weight off and devon and cornwall will rise again

[Nomada]

I would miss the cream! Mmmmm....

[The Honk]

The weather forecast for my area tonight is.........

"Cloudy with some light snow at first, gradually dying away this evening. Then mainly dry overnight with a few clear spells developing. Fresh winds along the Solway Coast at first, then lighter winds overnight. Minimum temperature -2 °C."

I'd say that was very typical for a chilly February night yet there are severe weather warnings in place!

[Nomada]

I'd say that was very typical for a chilly February night yet there are severe weather warnings in place!

I'd agree, but that's got nothing to do with climate change and more to do with being a nation of softies and the claim culture.

[brett53]

I'd say that was very typical for a chilly February night yet there are severe weather warnings in place!

I'd agree, but that's got nothing to do with climate change and more to do with being a nation of softies and the claim culture.

well said - get 2 snow flakes falling in the same county and its a severe weather warning - we have become a nation of litigious pussies !! ( and not this type )